Intro Music (Nina Simome): Here comes the sun, little darling. Here comes the sun. I say, it’s all right. It’s all right.
Julian Lamb: Good morning, Voices listeners. You’re at 90.7 FM KPFK. This is Julian Lamb, co-producer of Voices from the Front Lines, your national movement building show. Wake up and smell the revolution. Today we are going to be listening to an amazing interview and conversation done by your regular Voices host Eric Mann with poet, warrior, activist, and death row prisoner Keith LaMar. As some of our listeners may know from previous Voices show, Keith LaMar is a wrongfully convicted death row prisoner engaged in a battle for his life and his freedom. The settler state of Ohio has set a date of November 16th to execute Keith LaMar, and so we not only want you to listen to the show, but we also want you to get involved in the battle to save Keith’s life. After the show, go to keithlamar.org and find out the many ways that you can help Keith. And now, Eric Mann and Keith LaMar.
Eric Mann: Can you hear me, Keith?
Keith LaMar: Yeah.
Eric Mann: Amy sent me a text yesterday that scared them. What’s happening to you?
Keith LaMar: Well. it’s the same thing, you know. My problem is the ongoing thing. it’s nothing specific happened to trigger my decision to go on the hunger strike. It’s a constant thing. You hold off the aggression, or whatever you want to call it, for as long as you can, and you have to, you know, kind of make a stand, because the only way, only move, movement, or boom you have been left is to, you know, jump off the planet, basically.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: And yeah. So, it’s just, you know, it’s just, this is not my first hunger strike, I imagine it won’t be my last. Some point I’m hoping that right people face with the situation and understand that, you know, human beings are being tortured. And why is it that human beings are being tortured in these [unintelligible] that look so pedestrian on the outside, look so calm and collected on the outside; the green, the manicured lawn, and the, you know, the white washed buildings and whatnot, you know, look like college campuses, man. But what’s happening to us in here is happening on the inside.
Eric Mann: So, you know, Keith, one of the things that’s kind of amazing — there’s nothing that our listeners, except for a few, can understand, which is: you are in solitary confinement, threatened with an execution, and they still will not leave you alone. What’s the daily, what’s the daily harassment like? The daily just effing with you every single day? Why don’t you tell our listeners what in the world is that like?
Keith LaMar: I mean, it messes with your morale. I mean, that’s the whole point of it.
Eric Mann: Right .
Keith LaMar: It’s a kind of – I was explaining to some of my friends the other day, you know. Isaac Newton discovered and declared that for every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction. And so, for every time, or every move I made to elevate the profile of my situation, how these people have responded to that, the only way they can respond, because technically I’m not violating any rules — if I was, I’d be in the hole — so the only response they have devised to kind of deter me from pursuing my freedom, from expressing my situation to the public and retrying my case in the court of public opinion, is to institute these kind of, what I refer to as low-grade antagonisms, and just like death by a thousand cuts. I’m sure you heard that expression before.
Eric Mann: Of course.
Keith LaMar: So, it’s real small things, where you can’t have a handkerchief in your pocket, let’s say, up in the visiting room. You know I’m on death row, Eric, obviously, a lot of people, my friends and family, who come visit me, they get real emotional. And, you know, that’s a recurring thing. And so, I’ve taken to carrying a handkerchief in my pocket to hand my friends, or whoever, you know, that might be struggling with the reality of my situation, so they can wipe away their tears, blow their nose, or whatever the case may be, you know, so that they can, you know, maintain their dignity, you know. Why I’m so [unintelligible] participate in that. Cause I’m cried out. You know, I don’t generally have any tears about what I’m going through, but understandably, people who come into the situation, it’s a horrifying situation to see somebody you love chained to the table like an animal; to see somebody you love with the threat of death hanging over them. Even while we smiling or loving on each other, whatnot, it’s painful. So, anything that they can do to kind of interrupt that exchange, that human exchange, they do it. Like, the visiting room was really, up until recently, my last place of refuge. There’s a place where I meet with my family, people who don’t want to kill me, don’t want to see me, you know, lose my mind, so on and so forth. And so, it’s a real pleasant place, a place where I go to rejuvenate my spirit, so on and so forth, but here recently I haven’t been able to go to the visiting room without being busted by one of the guards telling me what I can and can no longer do. They devise these rules, and they specifically target towards me. We call them Keith LaMar rules, my visitors and I.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: That the offender can no longer have a toddler on his knee, for example. You know, my little nephew was 3-4, years old, you know, when he come obviously can’t sit in the chair by hisself without toppling over, so the rule, the policy initially was, you know, all kids under six years old could sit on your lap.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: So, they came up with all these other rules to kind of, you know, frustrate me, to, you know, make me retreat one step at a time, until now I feel my back is against the wall, basically. Yeah.
Eric Mann: Well, Keith, you know that — well first to everybody, we’re listening to the truly wonderful Keith LaMar, my new friend, and I think about you all the time. I have your book in front of me, Keith, Condemned.
Keith LaMar: Yeah.
Eric Mann: There’s a great passage in the back that says, “The state of Ohio is trying to kill me on a presently undetermined date.” And now, very – I don’t know what word to say, there is a determined date of November 16, right?
Keith LaMar: Yeah.
Eric Mann: “In a place where premeditated murder is consciously condoned, they intend to strap me down to a gurney and inject into my body poisons that are designed to stop my heart from beating. This isn’t just a book you have in your hands, it’s my life. I’m innocent.” And you know, Keith, when I read it, I do feel like your life is in my hands. And you know me, I feel not just responsible; as an organizer, I’m trying to dream up everything I can to do. And interestingly, you are doing some of the great things that need to be done, which is why they’re messing with you. And, I mean one thing we both know is even when you’re caged, you have these little rituals that make you happy, just little things that you figure out inside that horrible place, and so when they take it away, they know what they’re doing. It’s there to destabilize you, to demoralize you. How do you deal with it psychologically?
Keith LaMar: Well, it’s just as you say, I’ve devised these little things I can do. You know, I meditate. I get up early in the morning, 2 – 3 o’clock in the morning, when it’s still quiet enough for me to hear my thoughts, to kind of take stock of where I am in terms of my day to day tenacity, energy. And so, I take those checks, like, you know, you know, check your car before you go on a long journey; you check the oil, you make sure the battery is up, so I do that kind of diagnostic check on myself when I wake up in the morning, see how I’m feeling. Then I do my routine. I meditate, I do yoga, you know. And, you know, the work that I didn’t finish the day before is waiting on me on my bedside, little box I have on my bedside, my bedside table. And I look through that, my emails, and I just start, I just continue with myself. You know, I don’t, you know. And sick thing about what I learned when I was a young guy in this situation, that they would do the things that they’re doing to me now, and I would react, and that reaction would then be used as justification to strip me of my so-called privileges. And so, they were in, like in judo, they was using my own body against me, my own, the weight of my reactions against me, and I’m constantly finding myself on the ground, having to start all over again. I can’t afford to do that now, because, you know, as you just said, pointed out, my execution date is scheduled for November the 16th. So, I don’t have a whole lot of time to be playing these little games that these people, you know, play. And they haven’t changed. You know, I’m reading your book,”Comrade George, you know, I’m very, very familiar with George Jackson, and the same things they were doing to him is the same things that they are doing to me, and that’s the good thing, they haven’t changed. It’s the same playbook.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: And there’s been more, there’s been people much smarter than I am who have grappled with these same things, and they have written about it. George Jackson one of them, Malcolm X, Rubin Hurricane Carter. So, I’m not like without the resources and the mental, the presence of mind to actually deal with what I’m dealing with. It’s not that at all. No, so it’s not what am I doing to handle it, I’m doing it.
Eric Mann: Of course you are.
Keith LaMar: You know, going on the hunger strike is part of it. You know, it’s just, you know, a part to signal to my, my family, my friends, and supporters that, okay, I have, you know, have gone as far as I can go without, you know, jumping off the planet. It’s just something that’s part of my present life, man. I’m hoping that I can get to a different situation where I’m not constantly flirting with death, but right now that’s not the case. And so, I have to continue on, you know, the path that I’m on. Yeah.
Eric Mann: Well, since I’m reading your book, and you’re reading mine, could you give me any feedback on Comrade George” just for a minute? Because I wanted it, I mean, obviously, for me, it’s not a book, you understand, it’s a life. And I sent it to your life from my life. Have you been able to read any yet?
Keith LaMar: Yeah, I’ve been reading it. Yeah, yeah, of course I’ve been reading it. I’ve been reading about five pages a day, in addition to all the other things that I’m doing.
Eric Mann: Right. Of course.
Keith LaMar: And it all just, it’s all reminiscent, of course, with everything I was going through, particularly 20 years ago, or so, when I was first introduced to George Jackson. And he put words to the things that I was, you know, experiencing, and for the first time told me what it was, what the goal, you know, the destination that I was being delivered to. And, you know, the fact that I didn’t accept a deal, fact that I didn’t plead guilty to something I didn’t do, was in large part because I was reading Angela Davis, George Jackson. But you know the conditions that existed then, politically, in terms of the social awareness and education of just regular everyday people, was a whole lot different than what it is now. And the powers that be have made sure that you don’t have as many educated people around, people who understand, you know, how power operate, how power turn people against each other, so on and so forth. But yeah, reading your book, it’s all reminiscent, man, it’s like taking me back to the frame of mind that I was in when I was really, really in the thick of it and struggling through all the things that would bring me to where I am today, but without George Jackson, without Angela Davis, without Malcolm X, Rubin Hurricane Carter, you know, I wouldn’t be, you know, what I am, you know. I’m talking about mentally, spiritually. S,o you know, I’m just trying to carry forward, Eric. Yeah, it’s a hell of a document that you have. Raised a lot of important questions about the conditions that created someone like George Jackson, like he wasn’t created in a vacuum. And you know, majority of prisoners, yeah, that come through this grinding system, you never hear from them again, because it works. It’s effective, this machine. When he talks about this beast, real thing. So, yeah, I’ve been reading about five pages a day, you know, just working my way through it. But, you know, I have book clubs too, that I read with young people here in Ohio and in New York, and so I’m reading those books as well.
Eric Mann: Of course, of course. I’m reading yours, 5 pages to 10 a day, cause it’s hard reading. One thing I want to do before we go too long is I want to keep focusing on what we can do to help you, and I’m on the phone with Amy Gordiejew, as well as you, and Jenny Martinez from the Strategy Center. Maybe Amy, you could kick off- some amazing things are happening. And Keith, that’s partly why the backlash is happening, cause you are starting to win the battle. You are winning the battle of ideas, which terrifies them. I want to make sure listeners to Voices that, you know, you can’t listen to Keith LaMar and say, well, that was a good show. This is a good life. This is a good life that wants to keep living. So, we are obligated to do something to help Keith. Maybe, Amy, you could tell us a little bit about what’s going on, and then Keith, you could also. And obviously we start with keithlamar.com, but Amy, tell us more.
Amy Gordiejew:
Okay, well, really, we’re going to follow Keith’s lead on this, and so, as he embarks on the hunger strike next week, the place where we’ll be able to communicate what the most supportive actions are will be on the Justice for Keith LaMar Facebook page, all one word, justiceforkeithlamar. And then on his website at the bottom- at keithlamar.org- at the bottom of every page there is also a place where you can add your email to the database, and so we will send out email communication. But if it’s gonna, you know, we’ll see how it goes, but usually it entails calling, making phone calls, and we’ll provide a script to kind of guide folks who are making the calls who might not know what to say. We’ll give – you know to keep it simple, but to be clear, and to let them know that, both at the prison itself, where Keith is incarcerated, as well as the Ohio Department of, well, the prison system, we won’t call it the rehabilitation-
Eric Mann: Right.
Amy Gordiejew: But anyway, funny name, right? But also just that the people that are higher up, that they understand that he has an army of supporters all around the world, and when we descend on those phone lines, they will feel that support really strongly. And that’s the most important thing, is to just let them know that we expect his humanity to be, you know, upheld, and that these aggressions, these things that he’s been experiencing– and I’ve witnessed that numerous times– these interactions, these interferences, so he’s, he’s not making these things up. It’s nothing to be interrupted and out of a, you know, three or four hour visit, have nonsense occupy 30 minutes of it. It’s really, really ridiculous. Or that he will then call and say he’s gone back to his cell, and the whole place is completely torn apart, and it looks like an absolute trash pit that he has to spend four hours straightening up for nothing. So-
Keith LaMar: Yeah, but the most important thing, at least at this juncture, is that people take a few minutes, or however long it is, to call. ‘Cause one of the things that people in power need to understand is that when you strip somebody of their humanity, when you kill somebody in the traffic stop, then the next day cannot be business as usual. You shouldn’t be able to come in and go on they lunch break, come in and sit around and just kill somebody for nothing.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: See this thing that I’m going through, Eric, I’ve been going through as long as I’ve been trying to stand up and speak out about my situation, so it’s not something that I’m just now becoming aware of – Amy alluded to. I deal with it every day. And taken individually or separately, it’s not enough to say anything about, it’s the cumulative effect. Of all these little things, like I said, it’s death by a thousand cuts. Now they’re saying I can’t wear my religious necklace, my religious beads, my religious ring, things that I wear for protection, for spiritual protection, because I’m walking through this evil place.
Eric Mann:
Right. So, everybody, the voice you’re hearing is Keith LaMar. The other voice you’re hearing is Amy Gordiejew, and this is Eric Mann. You’re on Voices from the Front Lines, your national movement building show. Wake Up and smell the revolution. And the voice of Keith LaMar is talking about death by a thousand cuts, is just almost unbearable to hear, except it’s your life, Keith. Even before. Tell us the name of the head of the Department of Oppression in Ohio, and tell us the name of the wardens, cause some of us can call now, and just say, keep your hands off Keith. Isn’t that right? I mean, there’s nothing preventing us from calling them today.
Keith LaMar: Well, she’s not here today, and President’s Day tomorrow, she won’t be here tomorrow. I mean, the people that “have the power,” to stop this low-grade antagonism from happening — because there have been times where I’ve gone to go on a visit and enjoy my five hours with my family, you know, without being harassed. So, that permission to harass me has to come from the top. You know. Yeah, “you have permission for Keith LaMar today. Go ahead. See if you can trick him off the square,” you know. So, the warden here at OSP [Ohio State Penitentiary] is named Bracy. Warden, Bracy. B R A C Y.
Eric Mann: Okay.
Keith LaMar: And the director in Columbus, and Amy, you can provide the name for it. I think it’s A. E. Smith.
Amy Gordiejew: It’s Annette Chambers-Smith, it’s a hyphenated last name.
Eric Mann: Right. We’re gonna look that up. We’ll call-
Keith Lamar: We’re gonna provide that for people. We’re not going to, you know, make people have to search in the rabbit hole for those names. We’re going to provide the names and the phone numbers.
Eric Mann: Okay.
Keith LaMar: You know, make it as easy as we possibly can, so people can help, you know, help me. And so, you know, so you can go to keithlamar.org or Justice for Keith LaMar on Facebook, and that information will be there, as well as a brief description of what I’m going through, and what, you know, the talking points are, cause, you know, you only have — you know, look, I imagine a little time out your day, so we’re going to try to do the heavy lifting, we just need you to make the phone call.
Eric Mann: Yeah, and I just want to say again that, folks, you gotta do — that’s not a lot of heavy lifting, folks, to make a phone call. I try, when I’m on the phone with somebody to say, you know, you should be ashamed of yourself. Tell this to your children, tell them what you’re doing to Keith, tell them what you’re doing to these other prisoners. You know, I read the script, but I try to make a connection and say, do you really support this? Is this what you really believe is fair? Doesn’t matter, you know, if 30 or 40 or 50 people keep saying it, maybe it has some effect, besides, please stop it, cause well that’s, of course, what we’re asking for. Please stop the harassment, and please, exonerate Keith, and, you know, call off the execution.
Amy Gordiejew: You know, I just want to tell people that it’s not uncommon when making those phone calls, to be lied to by the staff and be told like we’ve not heard any of this before, that you’re the first person to call. So, they should just know that that’s part of it, and it’s helpful if they also leave comments to let us know what they encountered in those calls, so we can kind of adjust our script and that sort of thing. So, just engage on the post on Facebook and let us know what they’re encountering. It’s very helpful.
Eric Mann: Of course. Of course.
Keith LaMar: Right. Right.
Eric Mann: You know, Keith, last time we talked, if I can say, you were more at peace, more philosophical. Today, you’re more of a warrior, you know, going to war because they wouldn’t even let you have that moment.
Keith LaMar: But since that’s the whole point, Eric, you know, is to get you to shift your focus, to take your focus off of what, they don’t want you to be calm and have a presence of mind when you’re talking clearly about the issues at hand. This is all strategy on their part, and it’s effective to the degree that I have to, you know, step away from fighting for my life to fight for my day-to-day sanity and humanity. Because, you know, it’s one thing to talk about something that could happen in seven months from now, in November, but I’m talking about what can happen tomorrow.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: Or the day after.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: I mean, I’m a human being. In spite of what these people say about me, I’m just a human being. I’m made of fragile things, just like every other human being, and only can take so much. You know, just the tone of my voice has changed because the tone of my situation has changed.
Eric Mann: Of course.
Keith LaMar: It’s not sunny outside, it’s raining today, and so I get umbrella out, you know, that’s the only difference. I’m still the same person, you know. If I wasn’t, I would be in the hole right now for assault or, you know, disrespect or some other thing. I’m trying to deal with this as a 53 year old man would do. You know, I was talking about reading your book earlier, and I’m on page 100 right now, and it’s George Jackson as a revolutionary writer, and on this page where my thumb is at right now, it say: “I am an extremist. I call for extreme measures to solve extreme problems. To me, life without control over the determining factors are not worth the effort of drawing breath.” Okay, listen, I might not be able to- it’s me talking now- I might not be able to prevent these people from strapping me down to a gurney one day. I’ve made peace with that. But it won’t be because I didn’t do everything in my power to prevent it. It won’t be because I’ll use every day of my life to speak truth to power. It won’t be because I didn’t do my part. And I don’t necessarily consider myself as extremist, but this is an extreme situation, and I’m trying to rise to the occasion. I’m trying to be equal to the things that I’m going through, which is difficult. I need the help of other people. I can’t do it by myself. I think George Jackson didn’t realize that they had a lot of help. George Jackson, he was the star of that whole thing, but it was other people whose name we don’t know that supported him. Same here with me. So, you need supportive people. George Jackson was a human being. Somebody, if they were shot, that they can die from a bullet wound. We just human beings, and we need other human beings in order to affirm our humanity. I need other human beings. You do too. We need to help each other. That’s where the being part come in.
Eric Mann: Well, Keith, I want to be clear, a warrior is a very wonderful word, as is a philosopher. You are a warrior. I mean, going to war with the people going to war with you is what’s required.
Automated Voice: You have one minute remaining.
Keith LaMar: Yeah, well, I’m not going to let these people push me off the planet.
Eric Mann: That’s right.
Keith LaMar: I have a right to be on this planet, you know. And it is in defense of that right that I’m standing up, that I have to draw the line, and say, listen, beyond this point, I refuse to go, I’m not gonna let you push me off the planet. You know, I was on a visit the other day, I came back and found my cell ransacked. But this the day after my case was featured on The Real Killer podcast.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: You know, no coincidence. That’s their way of showing me how they feel about what I’m doing. And that’s fine. That’s fine. I play chess. You made your move, I’ll make mine.
Eric Mann: Keith, I’m trying to tell the strategy center, who are starting to get it, but still don’t fully get it, that life is a chess match. The revolution is a chess match. They make a move, we make a move.
Automated Voice: Thank you for using GTL.
Eric Mann: You’re still here, right, Keith?
Amy Gordiejew: He’ll call right back.
Eric Mann: Okay, great.
Julian Lamb: I’m Julian Lamb. You’re listening to Voices from the Front Lines, your national movement building show. Wake up and smell the revolution. You’re on 90.7 FM KPFK here in Los Angeles, listener-supported radio. As you may know, KPFK is in fund drive, and in order to continue to bring you amazing shows, KPFK needs your financial support. We are asking Voices listeners to go to kpfk.org or to call 818-985-5735 and find out the many ways that you can financially contribute to KPFK. 818-985-5735. Call the number and please contribute to KPFK, the radio station where your politics and social justice has a voice. And now we continue with Eric Mann and Keith LaMar.
Automated Voice: [unintelligible] and is subject to monitoring and recording. Thank you for using GTL.
Keith LaMar: Okay.
Eric Mann: Hey everybody, this is Eric Mann. You’re on Voices from the Front Lines, your national movement building show. Wake up and smell the revolution. You’re on KPFK 90.7 FM in Los Angeles, 98.7 FM in Santa Barbara, streaming live on the web at kpfk.org This will also be put out as a podcast. You can find it on voicesfromthefrontlines.com. It’s on every podcast venue that you want. Okay, so you know, this is Keith LaMar, PO’d, and for good reason, a four hour wrecking of your cell. You know, it’s almost like trying to take any element of joy out of your life, because Keith, you know, what you’ve done, which is amazing, is you’re playing the game also one day at a time, and you get more joy and more amazement into one day that most people do in a lifetime. So, that’s why they want to f up one day at a time, right? Because they look at you and you’re civilized and they’re a barbarian. You’re brilliant and they’re stupid. You’re anti-racist and they’re racist. You’re a human being, and they’re a pig. So, they hate you because you’re a more elevated person than they are, and they have to try to break your spirit. And in the small ways, by writing you letters, by talking about your book, by doing anything I can Keith, I want to help you every step in the way.
Keith LaMar: Yeah, I appreciate that. I definitely do. I mean, since our last conversation, I’ve heard from quite a few people. Amy has heard from people who heard the podcast or the radio broadcast, so, you know, all these things are very, very important. I think, you know, you know, an extension of what you were just saying, I think their ultimate aim is to get me to join them down there.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: You know, because that’s where their power really resides. They want you to do something so they can shoot you with rubber bullets, so they can strap you down to, you know, a restraint chair, so they can take your visit, so they can take your phone calls. And see, if I reacted in the way that they wanted me to react, I wouldn’t be able to fight for my life. So, this is not about a chain, a ring, it’s about me fighting for my life. I see it for what it is. But you know they always use alternate means to approach what they’re trying to do, to achieve what they’re trying to do. If you’re young, if you’re 20 years old, you don’t really understand what you’re dealing with, and so you react in the very way that they need you to react, and therefore help them achieve their own aims.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: But I’m 53 years old. I’ve been in the system for three decades. Over three decades. So, I’ve learned. They’ve taught and I’ve learned. This is about, you know, intervening. Can’t be business as usual, because this is a business. Despite what, you know, they want people in the public to believe, you know, freedom is not free, the only thing free is the market.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: You’ve even got to pay to play there. That’s what this capitalism is all about, is just grinding down human beings, turning them into things, into commodities. And it’s the same thing, nothing has changed, and that’s the tragedy, and we’ll be talking about, you wrote this book, and the pages are yellow, but the words are still true. Everything in this book is still relevant right now today. How can that be the case?
Eric Mann: Well, let me tell you something. When I wrote Comrade George, in 1974, there were 200,000 people in US prisons,200,000, which we thought was the most outrageous thing in the world. And 30% of them were Black, that would be 60,000 Black prisoners, right? Today there’s 1.5 billion prisoners, almost a million of whom are Black, and 200,000 of whom are women. So, there’s now 200,000 women in prison, and, when I wrote this book, there were 200,000 people in prison, of whom 20,000 were women. So, this country is – it’s not even a country, it’s a declining imperialist country that is so sick that all it knows how to do is arrest people and invade other countries.
Keith LaMar: Right. You know, when I was in my 20s, I of course, when I first came to prison, I didn’t have an awareness of any of these things, you know; deindustrialization, you know, the closing of all the mills and factories, you know, that coincided with mass incarceration, and the locking up of Brown and Black people, impoverished people from impoverished communities. But that’s how capitalism operate. You have five people in this country, Warren Buffett, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, so on, own more wealth and resources than the bottom 50% of all the whole population. But the narrative is that the people who are in prison are there because they have a moral failing, but the moral failing belongs to the people who have taken way more than they share, you know. But I’m just saying this is about the miseducation of the public. That’s the only way that they are able to do what they do. I mean, you have predominantly Black people who are at the, you know, higher levels of these places now.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: It’s a real clever trick that they have played. Ex-slaves are now the slave masters. So, you can’t even say anything, you know, because the warden here is a Black woman.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: And so you can’t say to her, I’ve tried to speak to her on several occasions, tried to say, you know, tried to use a different tact, you know, like don’t forget your humanity sister, don’t forget. But in order for you to get to that place, you know, of hierarchy, to get up, you know, to those higher, you know, posts, you have to demonstrate to these people that, listen, I can be just as cruel as you. And so, when you see a Tyre Nichols being beaten by five Black police officers, you know, that’s [unclear] to a lot of people. Not to me. I’ve seen it, I’ve felt those blows by Black people right here in prison. That’s about power, that is not about race. Race is a totally made up thing. It’s about power.
Eric Mann: Well, you know, Keith-
Keith LaMar: And they will use you in service of their power. That’s that’s all people need to understand about that. Yeah, go ahead, I’m sorry.
Eric Mann: No, don’t be sorry. You know, I enjoy our talks a lot. I listen to every – you know, I hang on your every word, brother, you know. You know, one of the things I’m writing about, cause I always, besides being an organizer, I’m a writer, is that in an imperialist country, in a racist white settler state, over time the majority of the people become imperialist, and they become racist, and they support the white settler state, including a lot of Black people. So, right now you have prison guards. You know, the prison guards union is the meanest union. They take people out, Keith, to conventions in Hawaii. All these elected officials bribe them, give them money to support more prisons, more prison guards. And then Black people get the job, as well as Latinos and whites, and they are convinced that their job is to subdue. And I will say, you know, they’re trained to feel that they have nothing to do with you, right? That they are of a different planet, and you are, I don’t want to say, but you know, the way they have been trained to think about the prisoners is the prisoners deserve punishment, and I’m here to give it.
Keith LaMar: I mean, the thing too, they have prisoners think that they deserve this kind of punishment. Because, you know, just like on the plantations, the slaves outnumbered the overseers, the same thing here in prison. So, you have to punish yourself. They put you in a cell and they leave you to it, and they convince you that you are guilty of something. But this is all about resources, disproportionate allocation of resources, and then your reaction to that reality is a crime. Oh, that’s been defined by people in power. And so, they put you in a cell and leave you to punish yourself. I walked through cells, Eric, where the mirror was completely scratched out, guys couldn’t even look at themselves in the mirror. That’s how effective, you know, these people are.
Eric Mann: I just heard what you said.
Keith LaMar: They make you punish your own self. They make you torture your own self. And, you know, here in the last couple of weeks and months, you know, the suicides have increased here in the Super Max prison. Had a guy committed suicide just a few weeks ago. And you hear the guards whispering about it, and, you know, they have some kind of vague, you know, sense that they are involved in something, you know, unseemly. And they are. Some of them quit. Some of them just walk out, and say, “Nah, I don’t like what this doing to me.” And good for you, good for you. You know with that old saying in the Bible: what profit a man who gains the world, but lose his soul? See, that’s the thing that you have to bear in mind. I’m not talking about the hereafter, this and that, I’m talking about, the theme, the core of who you are as a human being, you can lose that. You can lose your way, when you walking through these spaces. So, these religious, you know, artifacts that I wear on my finger and around my neck are just reminders to fight for my soul. So, that’s what this is about, that’s what my fight is ultimately about, you know. And I’m willing to starve myself.
Eric Mann: Well, Keith, your soul is rather amazing, your soul touches mine, you know that. And the reason I’m so glad we’re doing these Voices shows is to get — it’s called Voices from the Front Lines — and you are right on the front lines, and I, just take a minute, I want to talk to our listeners. I don’t know how you can hear this and not want to fly to Ohio, and march in front — I’m serious — march in front of the governor’s office, march in front of the Department of Oppression office. I’m not allowed to ask you to give money, but I can encourage you to say that Keith still has legal cards to play, he has lawyers working for him, and they’re trying to work, you could say below market, but they still need money. And I’m not afraid to say I’ve contributed money, strategy center’s contributed money, and you should contribute money, right? You don’t like it, you could put me in jail. So, this is serious stuff. This is life and death stuff. You know, a lot of people on KPFK who listen to, woe Capitalism is this, and, oh yeah, the transnational corporations are that. Who cares? What are you gonna do about it? That’s the only question. What are you going to do about it? KPFK Voices listeners. And the least you can do is go on keithlamar.org, register, so you can get all the emails and the alerts, and Amy, tell us about again, [unintelligible] tell us about the link to Facebook, just tell it again.
Amy Gordiejew: Facebook are all one word: justiceforkeithlamar. So, and then the website is keithlamar.org. And if anybody is being asked by some kind of — there are a few copycat sites out there that we keep trying to shut down. Those are the only official ones, justiceforkeithlamar, all one word. Any of our efforts to fundraise or whatever are posted in public spaces, not in people’s inboxes, we don’t do that. So, if somebody were approached privately, that’s suspicious. So, just justiceforkeithlamar on Instagram and Facebook, and the website is keithlamar.org.
Eric Mann: Well, I just keep saying keithlamar.org, keithlamar.org. Come on, folks, this is — by the way, Keith, you know, I told you in my letter, but this is a beautiful book. I’m on page 102 so we’ll have a competition on who can finish the book first. But you’re also a beautiful writer. You said, what did you say? Writing is excruciating or laborious, right?
Keith LaMar: Yeah.
Eric Mann: It’s for everybody, brother. I mean, I’m a professional writer. Everything I do has five drafts, except my letters to you, which just come right out. They’re good, but this-
Keith LaMar: I really, really enjoyed that letter you wrote me, Eric, I was talking to Amy about it. It had me laughing, had me in stitches, man. The part when you said, “Your Honor, I can’t do that kind of time.” (laughter) He said, “You’ll be okay, son.” You know, yeah. I went through a similar experience, man. When I was 19, they sentenced me to 18 years to life, and meant that I was going to the parole board when I was 32 years old. And as a 19 year old, I thought that was just, you know, outrageous, man, I just didn’t, you know.
Eric Mann: One thing, this is happening to me, Keith, is that my prison experience is so deep in me, but most people don’t want to hear it. They don’t. And they don’t understand. I did 18 months, and then I was under state control for five years, and I think probation was worse than prison becaus e-
Keith LaMar: Oh, it is [unintelligible] yeah.
Eric Mann: – every day I walked down the street, I really thought I could be busted and sent back for anything my parole officer wanted to. So, I want to crack you up. I’ll send you funny stories. You know, you’re the one who likes my prison joke the most.
Keith LaMar: You know, you know, you’re talking about 18 months, which, compared to how long I’ve been in seems like a drop in the bucket, but every day, every day in a place where you don’t want to be is hell.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: Primo Levi, who was in the concentration camps, Auschwitz-Birkenau. He was there for 11 months, and he never got over it.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: Committed suicide not long after he was, you know, released or freed, you know. But he wrote before he, before he died, Primo Levi. He got a book, he wrote a book called If This Is a Man. One of my favorite books. And he was a scientist when he was kidnapped, and, you know, thrust into one of those camps. He was a chemist.
Eric Mann: Right.
Keith LaMar: And so, he was able to look at what he was going through from a scientific standpoint, and he wrote it down. And reading that whole thing is really what helped me acquire the understanding, knowledge to deal with the complexities of my life, cause this stuff is complex. You think one thing is happening on the surface, the things that you can see and touch with your hand – but the effects of those things, the contact with those realities reverberate throughout your molecular system. It changes you fundamentally, and that’s where they’re doing the work at, below the level, on the level that you can’t see. This whole thing is designed to turn you into a piece of [unintelligible], to someone who can look at your brother, who as you said in your letter, who would get on the stand and lie on your friend for a bag of Fritos. For a box of Debbie’s, or for nothing, just for the satisfaction of appeasing these people who have a foot on their neck. And I’ve seen it. I see it every day.
Eric Mann: Well, Keith-
Keith LaMar: You know, so is this a man? You know, and so, yeah, you know, Primo Levi, 11 months, man. So, you know, it’s all relative, brother. It’s all relative. Every day matters of your life. Every day of your life matters, man, it matters.
Eric Mann: Well, the most important thing, Keith, is that you’ve allowed me to more, believe in the experience I had, you know what I mean? To [unintelligible] you what I did, ‘cause I got out of prison, you know the — Ho Chi Minh said, “When the prison door opens, the dragon will come out.” And I went in a dragon, and I came back a bigger one. And, you know, I’ve never ever looked back, Keith. You understand? I’ve never looked back. I hate these people.
Keith LaMar: Neither have I, man.
Eric Mann: You know what I’m saying? And it’s so good for me to have this relationship with you. You know, you feed my soul, and I’ll give anything for you, and I’m going to keep working with you, and I was telling Amy, I do want to come visit you soon. Channing, and I.
Keith LaMar: Yeah, yeah, that’s fine.
Eric Mann: We’re coming out.
Keith LaMar: Yeah that’s fine, I look forward to it
Eric Mann: Alright. So, we’re going to work on that. I just got the forms from Amy. Right? So-
Keith LaMar: I wanna say before we go, Eric, that I don’t hate anybody. James Baldwin said, “Hate, which can destroy so much, never failed to destroy the one who hated.” So, that reverberates. It’s like a boomerang, because we are all connected. The people who have they foot on my neck, they just don’t see that, see that. And so, we all are being damaged by the way we treat each other. It’s not hate, you know, that is inspiring me to do, you know, what I’m doing, to be who I am. It’s love for myself. Love and understanding of who we are. You know, that’s that’s the point that I’m trying to make. You know, they want you to hate them, but then you have now joined them down there, as Primo Levi would say.
Eric Mann: Well [unintelligible]
Keith LaMar: I’m not gonna allow that thing to fester and grow inside of me, you know what I mean. It’s love that’s the strongest power on this planet, and when it’s utilized by people who love strongly, you can move a mountain, so it’s got to be that man. It got to be that, man, you know.
Eric Mann: Well, you know, Keith, that I’m working on my next book, it’s called: I Saw a Revolution with My Own Eyes: History, Strategy and Organizing for the Revolution We Need Today. And the thing that people don’t understand, because I’m reading this other book called: Caliban and the Witch about how, you know, the killing of hundreds of thousands of women in the 13th, 14th –
Keith LaMar: Salem?
Eric Mann: Yeah, I mean, but I’m talking about mass, mass burnings of women who stood up for themselves, who refused to — but what the writer said, is the biggest thing they did was to kill the history. See? And as long as you have history, then you know you’re not alone. As long as you have history, then you have all these heroes and sheroes that you can work with. They want to deny you.
Keith LaMar: Right, yeah. Yeah, I agree with you, brother. I definitely agree with you, and that’s why I’m always talking about George Jackson, Malcolm X, Assata Shakur, Angela Davis, all these people who were in solitary confinement, at one time or another; all these people who have experienced everything that I am presently going through. So, I don’t look at it as if, you know, woe is me, this is woe is, you know, this is, you know, tragic that’s happening to Keith Lamar. So, I know that I’m a link in the chain that has been sustained throughout, you know, centuries, you know. And I’m trying to be my part, trying to do my part as a link on that chain. I owe that to the people that sacrificed so much. I owe that. So, I’m trying to, you know, like I said, rise to the occasion of my situation. It’s important that I do that, because it’s somebody that’s coming behind. You know, in every cell that I’ve been in, I’ve been moved from, because, you know these people can just move you wherever they want, they own this building, and by extension they own you, so they think. But I leave notes behind, I leave my book under the mattress. I’m always conscious of that.
Eric Mann: I want to make sure that every time we talk, you get the last word. What’s your last word to the folks who are listening?
Keith LaMar: Stand up and fight for your life. It’s just trying to find your happy medium. Get involved in this struggle. The humanity demands it. The earth demands it. And the earth is too, it’s under attack. This precious place that we have been allowed to journey through, is calling out for us to, you know, to become educated, to educate ourselves, so we can, you know, join the fight for light. You know, it’s light and darkness in this world, but we have to educate ourselves, stand up and fight, you know, do something righteous with our lives. I hope you all will join me in this struggle, cause it’s a righteous struggle. I’m not just doing this just for myself. If I’m executed, I won’t be the first or last person to be executed in this country. As you just alluded to, Eric, talking about the women who were, you know, lynched and burned by the thousands, by the hundreds, in Salem, and all over in the other places, you know. Those things happen, but those women were fighting, were after something, and so, you know, I just want everybody just to know, man, that, you know, just to stand up, and, you know, you know, have the courage to stand up, and, you know, speak truth to power, stand up, and stand where you are, wherever that might be, understand that you have a right to be on this planet. Thanks so much, Eric, I appreciate it, brother. Looking forward to talking to you again. You too, Channing.
Eric Mann: [unintelligible] You’ve got a deal.
Keith LaMar: Thanks so much, man. I know you’re behind the scenes, man, but I just want to let you know also, brother, that I appreciate your efforts and everything to help me, man. It really means a lot.
Channing:
Oh no, more, more thank you. I’m just so glad to be a fly on the wall, and to be able to do all the work I can to get this out to as many people.
Keith LaMar: Appreciate it, brother, this is really important.
Eric Mann: Well, just to say, Keith, that you know, I work in an organization with — Channing is my partner, we do everything. He’s director of organizing. I’m director. I work with Barbara Lott-Holland. I work with Julian Lamb, another brother who does a lot of the — he’s going to be editing. Brother from Belize and Garifuna. We work with Akunna Uka, Afro Nigerian, and Emily Zamora, Chicana. And we’re building a movement, you know. We got a great team, and Channing, he’s a lot in the — he ran for city council, by the way, on a platform of, cut the police in half. So, he’s not always behind the scenes. In that case, I was behind him. So, we’ll keep going, Keith. I’ll talk to you very soon.
Keith LaMar: Okay. Thanks so much, Eric. You hear from me soon, brother. Thanks so much. Okay, Channing, take care brother.
Eric Mann: Alright.
Keith LaMar: Peace.
Eric Mann: And thank you Amy.
Amy Gordiejew:
Bye Eric. Thank you so much.
Outro Music.
